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Lakeland Revival – An Appeal to Church Leaders
Posted on May 29th, 2008 in Church Life, Faith, Old-General by Fred McKinnon
Hey Everyone,
I’ve yet to really “get into” the thick of blogging on the revival in Lakeland, FL … for one primary reason. I’ve not been there, and I’ve not really watched it on the internet. I’ve felt the pressure from some to go … and from others to stay away. I’ve resolved that for now, I’ll pray and say “God, I’ll go down if You tell me to”.
Recently, a friend of mine who was diagnosed with a serious brain tumor (less than 30 days if he doesn’t have radical treatment) went down for prayer. Todd Bentley wasn’t there this evening, but into the worship, the man who was ministering had a “word of knowledge” that someone in a green shirt was there, and had a brain tumor. Well, my friend was wearing a green shirt, so he stood up and everyone faced him and prayed. Nobody interviewed him beforehand, nobody knew his situation, nobody snuck the ushers a card saying “he’s wearing a green shirt and he has cancer” …. I believe this was revelation by the Holy Spirit.
I’m hoping and praying for his glorious healing.
IN THE MEANTIME, the editor of Charisma magazine has sent out an appeal to church leadership. I didn’t receive the email, but discovered it’s contents on “For the Journey” blog. (ht mjd)
His name is J. Lee Grady, and his initial article from Charisma entitled “Honest Questions About the Lakeland Revival” was posted here. (thanks to Shannon, and his exhaustive list of links and blogs covering the revival)
So, this “email” or document or whatever was sent out by J. Lee Grady, and was posted on For the Journey … and this was too good not to pass along … I echo a hearty “amen” to this.
I’ve seen such bickering already going back and forth. My favorite approach thus far is what some call the “Gamaliel Approach” .. which is:
Acts 5:38-39
38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.
39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
That being said .. enjoy the plea for unity, and thanks again to MJD for his sharing this!
An Appeal for Unity in a Divisive Season
The Lakeland Revival has created tensions over doctrine and ministry styles. To avoid a crippling rift in the church we need strong leadership, clear discernment and a lot of love.
Revival is messy. As much as we would love for it to come in a neat and orderly package, history teaches us that outbreaks of the Holy Spirit are often accompanied by holy chaos. There may be conversions and healings in one corner and demonic manifestations in the other. In seasons of revival you can have miracles and mayhem. Holiness and heresy can erupt simultaneously.
When we look at the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts, we tend to focus on the positives: Dead people were raised, whole villages were saved and prison doors were opened supernaturally. On the flip side, this same revival season was interrupted by riots, opposed by religious legalists and tainted by false prophets, greedy charlatans and demons masquerading as angels.
Why must revival movements be so muddled? Perhaps it is because imperfect people (as well as sinister devils) get involved. Strange things happen when God’s power touches a sinful earth.
When revival hit Wales in 1904, almost an entire nation bowed before Jesus within two years. Yet the weight of God’s presence drove the revival’s humble leader, Evan Roberts, into depression. Meanwhile author Jessie Penn-Lewis, writing in her book War on the Saints, suggested that fleshly manifestations in Welsh prayer meetings had snuffed out the Spirit’s power.
In our nation today thousands have been swept into the current of the Lakeland Revival in Florida, which began in early April in evangelist Todd Bentley’s meetings at Ignited Church. The fervor quickly spread because of God TV’s broadcasts, and today up to 10,000 gather nightly at a venue near the city’s airport. In recent days, people who were touched in Lakeland have started similar meetings in Atlanta, Chicago, Charlotte, N.C. and other cities. Bentley and his colleagues believe this is the beginning of a worldwide healing revival that will cover the globe.
But not everyone in the charismatic/Pentecostal community is convinced. Some say this is the last end-time revival while others maintain it is a demonic counterfeit. Cult-watchers and anti-heresy bloggers post Bentley’s comments on YouTube as evidence of a theological scandal. Revival advocates respond by posting documented evidence of healings. It all begins to resemble a childish competition.
Still others worry that Lakeland represents a questionable mixture of truth and error. Since the initial eruption of the revival, my inbox has been full of messages from charismatic leaders who are concerned about weighty issues as well as trivial ones: Everything from Bentley’s tattoos and body piercings to his claim that he once interviewed the apostle Paul in heaven.
When I wrote an article in mid-May calling for scrutiny of some aspects of the Lakeland Revival, I was labeled a Pharisee and a “religious policeman.” People who said they had been deeply impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.
I refuse to go on the defensive, and if I need to retract any statement I’ve ever made about this revival I will. But what these nasty exchanges have shown me is that a divisive spirit is certainly at work in our midst—and we need urgent prayer to short-circuit what the devil wants to do.
When the early church was hit with the issue of Jewish legalism, Paul and Barnabas determined that the answer was to seek the counsel of “the apostles and elders” in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2, NASB). The church was being divided because the legalists were insisting that gentiles be circumcised. But when the elders looked into the matter, the apostle James settled the dispute by issuing this wise ruling:
“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood” (v. 19-20). In other words, James affirmed the gentiles’ access to salvation and overturned the legalists’ bad doctrine.
Based on this biblical example, I am appealing to the elders in our movement. We need to hear from them in this hour. In a desperate moment we need older, seasoned veterans to release the counsel of the Lord.
Today the charismatic movement has become fractured, and opposing camps have formed. On one side there are those in the apostolic camp who tend to emphasize biblical order, proper church government, spiritual warfare and the reformation of society. On the other side are those in the prophetic camp who focus on miracles, healing, mystical experiences and the reclaiming of all the supernatural manifestations of the New Testament.
Both of these camps are contending for valid, biblical truths. We need the prophetic and the apostolic! We need miracles as much as we need healthy church growth and societal change. Yet if we do not have a holy intervention, we could bite and devour one another—and cancel out our collective impact.
A biblical council must include the leaders of both of these camps. And leaders must address all of the difficult issues triggered by the Lakeland Revival. Those include:
1. Biblical guidelines about angels. Some people in the prophetic camp speak of frequent visits to heaven, “third heaven revelations,” and long conversations with angels who use names such as Emma, Promise and Winds of Change. Are these indeed spirits sent from God, or agents of false light?
2. A proper theology of the dead. Some in the prophetic camp claim they have had conversations with dead Christians—including Paul the apostle. Is this within the bounds of Christian experience, or is it necromancy?
3. Pastoral guidance about exotic spiritual manifestations. In some circles in our movement, unusual signs and wonders have been reported in church services—including the sudden appearance of gold dust, feathers, gemstones and oil. At the same time, worshipers are vibrating on the floor, jerking uncontrollably and acting intoxicated. How can we protect people from the abuse of manifestations, and from demonic influence, while at the same time leaving room for genuine encounters with God?
4. Clear guidelines concerning the restoration of fallen ministers. The appearance of one prominent fallen evangelist, Paul Cain, at the Lakeland Revival in May unleashed strong reactions from many sectors of the church. Many people feel unprotected when they sense that church leaders have chosen not to enforce proper discipline for a minister’s unbiblical behavior. In this adulterous generation, how can we draw lines to protect congregations while at the same time offer healing and grace to a repentant preacher?
These are some of the crucial questions we face as a movement. May we proceed with a fresh gift of discernment, while at the same time laying hold of all the blessings that revival will bring us.
OK … long post … but your thoughts?
Related posts:
43 Responses to “Lakeland Revival – An Appeal to Church Leaders”
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Everyone seems to forget that the Bible tells that that we ARE to judge those within the church. Biblically speaking, we ARE called to “police” our own! I do not understand how anyone can put their stamp of approval on a man who speaks “in the Spirit” by saying “blah, blah, blah” and punches people in the face because the Holy Spirit t”ells him to”.
Who was the MOST Spirit-filled human being who ever walked on planet earth? JESUS. Let’s look at His example – he dealt with the demonic with AUTHORITY, not childish theatrics (does the demon respond better if you yell at him???).
I agree that as Paul said, what matters is that “Christ is preached” but when someone gains an enormous public profile, the become a representative of Christianity and the whole American church. There is an enormous amount of responsibility that comes with that and that’s why we must judge Todd Bentley ourselves, as the church – his theatrics are shredding the reputation of the American Church.
Pardon my French but can we please grow a pair and stop being politically correct about this? If the Apostle Paul were alive today, he would hop on a ship to Florida, punch this dude in the face, and tell him to stop acting like an idiot. Seriously…
Jeff …
So, how do you REALLY feel about it? (grin)
This same Jesus also SPIT IN THE DIRT, made mud and put it in a man’s eyes. This same Man took the time to plait a whip (a time consuming task) and drove out the animals from the temple. This same Man called a man “Satan”.
We DO need to judge the people within the church. Many may think this man is an “idiot”. But his track record proves that he loves the Lord and has done many great things for Him.
Jeff, I also have problems with some things I’ve seen in Lakeland. But I have seen legitimate workings of God through this ministry. It doesn’t mean that the people doing them are perfect. But God has decided to show up and work THROUGH this man you are calling an “idiot”.
We do need to judge, but I think a little mercy and grace need to be mixed in with it. Jesus told the people not to just listen to what He said, but to let their main judgement be by the works He accomplished.
We want to call what doesn’t seem “right to us” an abomination. But history proves that God does things that go totally against what the current day church thought was abominable.
Jesus was an abomination to the current-day church.
May we all quit crucifying the men involved and pray that God will truly manifest Himself. God is bigger than man. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He has promised that His will will be accomplished for those whose hearts are completely His.
Finally, if people are going down to Lakeland or watching it on God TV or the internet and getting healed as a result of their faith, then let it be, O Lord. Let it be.
I hope no offense was given by this.
There is obviously a line in the sand!
I like the points in this article.
Blindly accepting this without “testing” is just as silly as cynically opposing without “tasting.”
Great post Fred.
Russ,
Your eye is scares me!
But I liked the wisdom you just shared.
I’m doing my best to approach this from a purely Biblical standpoint and I can’t get away from the Biblically defined “Fruit of the Spirit”. The implication of the term “Fruit of the Spirit” is that those traits are the outward evidence of the Holy Spirit indwelling a person. “Self control” seems to be the one everyone wants to throw out the window…
Jesus putting mud in a dude’s eyes is not even CLOSE to kicking a worshiping old lady in the face (you can watch Todd talk about doing that on YouTube). Jesus call a man “Satan” has nothing to do with this issue! And Jesus making a whip to drive out men who were defiling the temple is not the same thing either!
Here’s what I genuinely believe – Todd Bentley loves Jesus and probably has a supernatural anointing. Often God will allow an anointing to remain, even when it’s abused (e.g. worship leaders who lead us into “the holy of holies” while secretly having an affair). That’s what’s happening here. T.B. is abusing a God-given gift. He’s showboating. He’s dealing with treating sacred and spiritual things in a borderline sacreligious way.
That’s why people need to speak up and say “Dude – humble yourself”. Jesus was so low-key in his approach to the miraculous. If we can all agree that Jesus is the ultimate example, why can’t we all agree that Todd Bentley’s method’s are blatantly un-Christlike?
Russ – the “testing” of Todd Bentley’s ministry is contrasting it with what the Bible says and how it describes the ministry of Christ.
One final interesting point – the Bible says that the Word of God IS Spirit. If you investigate, Biblically, what it means to be “Filled with the Spirit”, you will find something completely different to what’s been happening in Lakeland (holy laughter, falling down etc.)
If anyone feels differently, please back it up with some Scripture because I think we can all agree that the Word is the final authority in matters like this!
P.S. I’m really a much nicer guy than my posts make me sound! I’m just seriously P.O.’ed at the rampant, wussy, politically correct attitude that people are taking with Todd Bentley. READ THE BIBLE, HOMIES!!!
I’m personally unconvinced that what is happening in Lakeland is of God. There are names involved that convince me, because of my convictions about these men, that it is not of God. I hesitate to condemn, because I know these are likely very genuine men. Their theology, ecclesiology, and possibly even their soteriology is sincerely dangerous. I am personally enough of a cessationist that most continuationists toss me aside as unChristian, but I do believe that God does miracles. I simply refuse to believe that He does them on demand or in a fashion that brings attention to man. He talks too much in His Word about praying in a closet and things of that nature for me to believe that He is impressed with showmen.
This is dangerous. I don’t want to impose MY belief about it on you, Fred, because I know you have more Charismatic leanings than I do, but even Charismatics are questioning this. As you are doing, I believe it’s wise to be careful. The theology is highly suspect, which leads me to be very wary.
Yes, Yes, Yes! A million times yes!!! I continue to be impressed by Grady’s balanced approach to this divisive issue.
I’ve been saying from the beginning that we should leave these men alone and let time tell whether what they’re doing is from God or not (what Fred called the “Gamaliel Approach.)
I also stand by Grady’s statement that we NEED (and I mean desperately) some authoritative judgement on this movement. I’ve been saying for a long time that There needs to be a restoration of biblical apostolic authority in the Body of Christ and this is just proof.
Situations such as these simply prove our need for apostolic authority. Ask any ten Christians what they think about the Lakeland revival and you’ll get twelve different answers.
What that tells me is that someone older, wiser, and more seasoned than us needs to make this call and I’ll be quite honest, I don’t know anyone in my close circle of friends and aquaintances (most of whom read this blog) who walks in apostolic authority.
That’s not a shot, just a statement of fact. It’s way too easy for us to sit on our rumps and say that this “doesn’t feel right” or the “theology seems shoddy.”
Someone with some spiritual authority needs to make this call and that someone ain’t me. Just my 2 cents worth.
Wow….this is some great deep stuff here. I need some time to think this through.
jonathan edwards wrote a CRAZY AMAZING definition of true revival once – because he lived in it for so much of his ministry. i’m sure it can be googled. he was a conservative. he was reasonable. he was intelligent. and he didn’t discount it all…
i wonder what he’d say about lakeland.
I myself have been glued to the God TV channel for 4 hrs every night watching history in the making. Do you know how awesome it is to be able via television to be a part of a world-wide revival?? I plan to go to Lakeland in July. I believe we’re living in the day and hour for miracles.
Mandy, I’d like to point out to you that during Johnathan Edwards preaching, people would swoon, faint, and even act drunk sometimes. Hmmm…..sound familiar? I quote from the Wiki on him:
[i] The movement met with opposition from conservative Congregationalist ministers. In 1741, Edwards published in its defense The Distinguishing Marks of a Work of the Spirit of God, dealing particularly with the phenomena most criticized: the swoonings, outcries and convulsions. These “bodily effects,” he insisted, were not distinguishing marks of the work of the Spirit of God [b] one way or another; [/b] but so bitter was the feeling against the revival in the more strictly Puritan churches that, in 1742, he was forced to write a second apology” [/i]
I have a feeling that Edwards would probably say that the persecution sure felt the same.
I’m still blown away at how people will reference Jonathan Edwards before they reference the Bible!!!
If you buy into the Lakeland thing, please back it up with some Scripture… from the Bible… written by God… to guide us through stuff like this.
The funny thing about Jonathan Edwards is that he was not a dynamic preacher. Apparently, he stood there and read his now famous sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”. I thought that fact was fascinating. Anyway, a friend of mine and I have been in on going conversation about Lakeland. She has watched some it at her church, and has been asking alot of questions. Neither one of us grew up Pentacostal so I am probably not the expert. I do know that the church I am in now is Pentacostal and they really seem to have a balanced approach. I have learned alot and have even changed my views on some things. Two things kind of jump out to me. First of all, all the gifts of the Spirit that Paul talks about are to be used for the edification of the body, not just the believer personally. The second thing is, Paul tells the church to let things be done decently and in order. God is not the author of confusion. I personally don’t know if this revival fits these things but it is just what I have been thinking about in my ongoing conversations with my friend. I think the letters that Paul wrote to the churches in the first century are applicable to today.
GREAT points Angela!
One of the verse most often perverted in these types of situations is Ephesians 5:18, which says:
“Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.”
I’d like to point out that the verse is not implying that being “filled with the Spirit” is to be “drunk” with the Spirit! In fact, the rest of the passage goes on to describe what being “Filled with the Spirit” looks like (in verse 19-20):
“Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
That sounds a bit more orderly than what’s going on in Lakeland.
Additionally, the “fruit of the Spirit” (what the Holy Spirit inside a person produces) is described as being “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control”. When I look at Lakeland, I see several polar opposites being practiced (peace, gentleness and self-control).
Instead of using of flesh to try and define what it means to be “filled with the Spirit”, let’s cling tightly to what the Word of God says on the subject. I believe Christ Himself says it perfectly in John 6:63:
“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”
Wonderful post! We have had discussions “abundant” on the “revival”. My husband and I have watched and talked this over and over. I believe that God is real and His power manifests in many ways. That being said, I’ve seen enough to “worry” me. I do not discount that God can move through the faith of a person and heal, save, restore, etc. regardless of who is at the “pulpit”.
But it really leaves me shaking my head, and wondering…
Thanks to all for their insight.
Just give this a listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIjO4wMLjBk
Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
1 Corinthians 2:1-2
And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
I also have an issue with the fact that Todd Bentley WAS “clean-shaven and polished” a couple of years ago when he first started doing the Pentecostal circuit (you can see it in older video clips). He’s a not “from the streets”, he just got tatted-out to look like he was and now he talks like he’s some rough dude. It’s a total gimmick…
robert – it should be noted that ‘spit’ was used by most in Jesus day as ‘medicine’ as saliva was believed to have medicinal qualities. very few of the actions used by Jesus to perform miracles were at all out of the ordinary in their historical and cultural contest – the outcome was what set him apart.
ben, i’ve never taken issue with the actions of the crowd during any revival, as i expect there to be flesh present under such circumstances – however, one can’t deny the vast difference between the content of Edward’s preaching, and that of Bentley. my primarily issue, and most people’s primary issue, has been with what’s happened on the PLATFORM in this revival – that’s what has concerned us. that said, if you read my most recent blogs on the subject, i believe i’ve been seeing some good changes there
[...] and I??ve not really watched it on the internet. I??ve felt the pressure from some to go ?? andhttp://www.fredmckinnon.com/myblog/2008/05/29/lakeland-revival-an-appeal-to-church-leaders/New releases by Radiohead, Journey, Jewel arrive this week Akron Beacon JournalDue in stores [...]
Hi Everyone,
A special thanks to all who are contributing to this discussion. Jeff, I hear your concerns bro … so don’t feel like the odd man out … though, I can’t help but feel like there is a sense of hurt and maybe even bitterness coming out in your tone – I can certainly see you are frustrated.
The reality is, I don’t know that we have a LOT of “play-by-play”, personality-type reference of how miracles happened in the Bible. I mean, we see Jesus prayed, they were healed. How did He pray? Was it soft or loud? Was it forceful with authority, or did He just look and softly say “be delivered”. I’m not sure that we have to model everything off the examples we see on a “play-by-play”, “method-by-method” basis … I think what’s most important is the “heart of the matter” … the “doing” … not the “how it’s done”.
That being said, we do have Biblical model and mandates of how we are to conduct ourselves – both personally, and corporately … some great points Jeff has brought up .. and that Shannon has reinforced, though saying that he has noticed a marked improvement.
If indeed the platform was full of self-glorification, error, and show-boating, and it’s been corrected and/or toned down .. I can offer my applause and respect to a man (or men) who listen to correction and make the necessary changes.
It’s also hard to forget the fact that we are all human … and though we have the same Spirit as Jesus Christ had .. let’s face it … we’re nowhere close to walking “as he walked”. The energy, excitement, and power that God’s anointing can have on a person can stir up the environment in a room where our own personalities, energies, and nature changes. Some of that is just a direct response of an energetic, faith-filled, expectant “air” in the place.
Like when an all-time homerun hitter comes to the plate in a ballgame – trying to break a world record .. well, the place goes nuts … and the energy level and excitement level inside the dugout would cause the fans (and the players, symbolic of those on the platform) to go nuts. Hit it out of the ballpark – you go even MORE NUTS.
That being said, why can’t we recognize (and have some measure of GRACE) for the fact that SOME OF THIS could be happening right there in Lakeland. Does it make it right? No. Does it make it WRONG? Not necessarily.
Ponder this.
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Jeff,
I’ve listened to all you’ve had to say. I acknowledge that everyone has a right to their own opinion, and I also acknowledge your desire to have the Word be our standard of judgement.
I listened to the youtube video and it make total sense to me. He has a legitimate point. That’s MY opinion.
The problem I have right now is that I could use several scriptures to back up many things I’ve seen. I can also see many things that truly DO bother me. But I believe you have already made your mind up about it. You’ve made yourself abundantly clear of how you feel.
My greatest concern is FOR you. You have called someone that I believe to be an anointed man of God -called by Him to do a work FOR Him – an “idiot”. You have called him several other names.
For all the judgements you have made and publicly bashed him with, you are being guilty of the same thing. There is no love for this person that I can see in you. All you care about is what is right and wrong, and there is a place for that. But truth without mercy is deadly, and even Michael, the arch-angel of God, didn’t rail against Satan.
Jeff, I can only say this: can YOU move in the supernatural and be used by God to accomplish what’s going on down there? Can YOU move in the prophetic and do a better job than Todd Bentley? If you can, then go down and relieve him by all means.
If not, why not simply pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal to him what isn’t right so that changes can be made? Why not pour prayer-filled love toward him instead of calling him names and condemning him. Why not go down and try and build a relationship with him so that your judgements can be made out of personal knowledge of the man?
I don’t care about his tatoos, as long as his heart has been tatooed as well. I don’t care about his methodology as long as God’s will is being accomplished. As long as I believe his heart wants to see God move I will pray for God’s will to be accomplished through him.
God has called his prophets and ministers to do some pretty wild things in the past – and it’s always the religious folks who believe that they have a patten on what God’s word means that crucify them.
I pray that we can simply allow God to be God in this situation, pray for Todd Bentley – that he would be open to what God is saying, and praise Him that so many peoples’ lives are being changed as a result of what is going on down in Lakeland – IN SPITE of what we see that “bothers” us.
If we can’t do that, then we will MURDER a move of God just like we have so often in the past.
I have said all this out of love and a heart of concern for the body of Christ. We need a move of God, and I NEED this to be real. We all do. We are desperate for God to move, and if I can say one thing that I KNOW about my God, He does things to confound the wise. He hates the proud. He loves the simple.
I’m simple. I’m dumb enough to believe that God can work any way He wants to even if it bothers the heck out of my flesh.
Robert – Your response was to Jeff, not to me, so forgive me if I’m intruding. I don’t mean to.
Just two quick points that I feel are necessary to contextualize this discussion.
One – you presume that “the prophetic” and supernatural ministry are valid today. I just want to be fair and point out that we don’t all believe this in necessarily the same way. Part of the difficulty of accepting Todd’s ministry as “of God”, for many, is that we are either cessationists, or, at the very least, “non-apostolic” in nature. If this is truly of God, it hits at the very core of that belief. Much of what Todd preaches is “extra revelation”, supposedly either a direct word from God, or from a certain angel. My personal belief that the revelation of God ended with the closing of the canon puts up a roadblock to much of the teaching. I believe that Paul was the last apostle apointed, and thus I bump heads with much modern apostolic “authority” teaching and the necessary discernment. (Aside – I realize that this is probably in conflict with the beliefs of Fred and the readers of this blog. I’m not “at odds” with you about it – I love you all in Christ and I consider Fred a great friend – but we must accept the fact that we don’t agree.) In other words, for ME personally to accept some of these things as being “of God”, I must decide if Todd Bentley, Bob Jones, and even Paul Cain and Patricia King are teaching things that I feel align with Scripture. I can’t just say “Well, good things are happening, and they use Jesus name,” and go on. No, I must evaluate whether I can believe in modern miracle crusades, whether I can accept Latter Rain teaching, whether people are really “slain in the Spirit”, or not, whether God is at our beck and call, whether or not we are allowed to speak with angels, etc. etc. It’s a big discussion. As a “leader” in a church with some members that are easily confused by “powerful” happenings, I MUST form an opinion that agrees with what I believe about Scripture and be prepared to defend it. Would I advise a church member to travel 12-14 hours to attend this? At this point, absolutely not, based on my comparisons of what I see happening with my beliefs about Scripture. I’m not a pastor, but I still have a responsibility to discern, and what I see does not match what I believe about Scripture. Thus, it’s difficult to just take a “hands off” approach.
Second – you mention “we will MURDER a move of God just like we have so often in the past.” This bothers me, because I believe, again based on Scripture, that NO ONE can hinder God when He chooses to work. Jesus’ death was NOT the result of Jews fighting God. No, indeed, it was the absolute fulfillment of His perfect plan. If you adopt Gamaliel’s argument, your statement here shoots it down in entirety, because the truth is, if it IS a move of God, NOTHING we do, Jeff, me, or even Todd Bentley, can stop it. As well, if it’s a move of God, Todd Bentley could die tomorrow and the move would continue.
In Christ and with love,
Bernard
Bernard -
Thanks for the grace in which you respond. Even though it’s hard to sense and feel one’s “tone” in an email or blog comment, I discern a spirit of love, grace, and mercy in your response.
First – I have to agree, if you are a cessasionist (which you are correct in stating that we’d certainly choose to disagree on that theology), you can’t really embrace this. So, if you come from the cessasionist or non-apostolic viewpoints, I can understand how you’d take issue w/ this move. No intentions of trying to change your mind on that one … wouldn’t do that anyway …. yeah, maybe a different blog discussion, but I doubt either of us is interested in changing the other’s mind! (grin)
Second – let me clarify (at least, for my own benefit) that I’m am 100% totally opposed to ANY “extra-revelation” claiming to come from an “angel”. I believe God has revealed Himself through His Word, and I do wholeheartedly believe that God still speaks today through His Body, and through ministry gifts … but any “revelation” has to be in full agreement with God’s Word, and supported by God’s written Word … otherwise, I discard it.
Lastly … I cannot agree with your comment that God’s work “cannot be hindered”. God’s work is hindered all the time by mankind.
My supporting Scripture in this case is where Jesus could “do no miracles” (or not many miracles) because of the unbelief of the people there. These people, and their unbelief (or choice to NOT BELIEVE) had a direct impact on Jesus’ ability to move as He desired.
Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matthew 13:53-58 NKJV
Just my $.02.
Bernard,
I respect your right to believe or not believe in things like I do. No problem there. I have the same issues you do on the opposite side of the coin.
You have a hard time understanding how I believe that the prophetic and apostolic are still operating today. I have a hard time understanding how you don’t. But that’s ok, right? We don’t all have to agree with each other. But we do have to agree with what the Bible says. The problem is that so many of us see it differently.
We could get into a biblical discussion on this and I wouldn’t mind it, but this isn’t the venue for it.
As far as “nobody can hinder God” . . . Jesus was only able to do a few things in His own home town because people refused to believe in Him. God wanted to work, but unbelief stopped Him. The bible is full of places where God wanted things to go a certain way, but the people got in the way.
I believe God can and does operate many times in spite of us, but He has chosen (for the most part) to work through people. When people will not cooperate, His work is either stifled or delayed. Just too many scriptural references to bring up.
Oh, and you’re NOT intruding at all, brother!
Fred, I think it’s funny that you posted the same scripture here that I did. For all you folks out there, neither of us knew the other was posting at the same time!
I think I’ll make this my last post on this subject and use it to hopefully clear up a a couple of things…
I am bitter about this – I’m bitter that other believers are taking the “love and grace” approach with issues that the Bible says are to be judged and not “loved” into biblical correctness. I feel like nobody reads the writings of Paul that command us to “remove the immoral brother from among you”. He’s talking about the unrepentant believer. Isn’t it shocking that Paul doesn’t mention lvoe and grace in that situation?
As far as someone preaching angels, the Bible says that man is CURSED. No mention of love and mercy.
I, like Paul, am “chief among sinners” and in CONSTANT need of God’s grace and mercy. But if you can’t distinguish or discern which situations need love and mercy and which ones need to be judged, then I’m afraid you’re simply not reading your Bible.
I’m not even interpreting the Bible – I simply taking what it says to mean what it says!
When it comes to teaching what is Biblically defined false theology, we are commanded to judge our own. The Bible says that person is cursed. There’s no way around this.
Robert – could you please list these verses you reference in your post? I have nothing but a sincere desire to see the church act Biblically in this matter. As far as suggesting I take my concerns to Todd personally, that’s simply not realistic for purely geographical reasons (he’s not in Lakeland anymore) and I also know that several people have tried unsuccessfully to do just that. Your question of “can you do what Todd does better?” is just ridiculous. If a preacher teaches heresy, should you keep your mouth shut because you can’t preach as well as he can???
As far as the name calling, I shouldn’t have called him an idiot bu let us not forget that Paul wished that certain legalistic men would “castrate themselves”!
I’m still haven’t heard anyone give me a BIBLICAL reason why we should bypass what the Bible says about teaching on angels and what the Holy Spirit tangibly looks like.
I’m a horrendously flawed messenger but I hope that you’re mature enough of hear the message in spite of me. I’m begging you, as other believers, please go the Word on this. Stop using your own judgment about what “feels” or “seems” right in this matter. Neither you or I can trust our own judgment apart from God’s Word. Let’s not ignore the hard truths of the Word.
Finally, I am Spirit-filled and pray in tongues in my private prayer life. I believe in the miraculous and that all of the gifts of the Spirit are active today. I depend on the Holy Spirit in order to do ministry. I have no legalistic agenda. All I want is to see things done in truth, in line with the Word. That’s the issue. Not the fact that I write without a filter between my mind and my mouth (I’m working on it)!
The good news, to me, is that I see people truly seeking God through His Word and through prayer in regard to this. I see those of charismatic “direction” seeking God about it. We could debate cessationism all day, but we would be much more blessed for spending our time talking to the Father.
I pray that, even in a disagreement, I can be gracious and loving. I’ve been wrong many times, and I will be wrong more in the future, I’m sure. I don’t understand everything about God. I see things that puzzle me. I see things that baffle me. But somehow He’s in charge.
I’ve come to a point in life where I’m very suspicious of “feelings” or “emotions” or anything else that is subjective. I’ve had to lean on the Word of God in a way that perhaps would seem confusing to others. I question EVERY preacher I hear. Not out of hateful distrust, but because I’ve truly realized that even “anointed” preaching is always tainted with the beliefs of the man preaching. Those beliefs are influenced by a lot of things, the biggest one being their FIRST exposure to church. A preacher who was “raised” as a Catholic will preach MUCH different than one raised as a Pentecostal, and they’ll both preach MUCH different than one raised as a Baptist, even though they may all be 30 years old and graduated from the same seminary and even preach in the same building. Thus, in a spirit of “does this align with God’s word” I try to continually take the preaching I hear and compare it to what I hear God saying IN HIS WORD. I believe that God primarily speaks to today’s Christian through the Bible. Any version of “God told me” MUST be compared to that belief in my world. I simply don’t put much credence in “God told me to kick the old lady in the face.” I put much more credence in “Go ye therefore into all the world…” The entire idea of being caught up “into the third heaven” on demand is so foreign to my theology that I immediately go into “red flag” status when I bump into that.
I believe in the God that CAN do anything. I do not deny God the ability to do miracles, even today. I believe He often performs them, even today, but I believe it is always through prayer, not through a special impartation or through a certain man or through a certain anointing. However, I believe that God has clearly told us in His word that He deals with men today through the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit ALWAYS points to Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit does nothing for his own glory, nor for the glory of man, nor for the excitement of the masses. It is always to glorify the Son of God.
There is MUCH to this, and I hope I’m being appropriate. I definitely don’t mean to discredit the power of the God that I believe has created an entire universe, but I believe He has a plan and that He has limited his manifest expression of Himself today, basically due to the fact that we are to believe in Christ – the Word – through faith and faith alone.
Robert – Just to be brief, you said “You have a hard time understanding how I believe that the prophetic and apostolic are still operating today. I have a hard time understanding how you don’t.” I don’t necessarily have a hard time understanding your belief, it’s just that I basically believe that this is not part of God’s plan for the church of today. I can easily see that the opposite viewpoint can be taken, even based on Scripture, but it’s a thing in which “straddling the fence” is difficult or impossible. We must come down on one side or the other. My biggest concern is not whether or not “you” believe in the prophetic, but whether your belief in that becomes bigger than your belief in Christ. In other words, are “we” going to “Lakeland” to see Jesus Christ at work, or are we going because of our inexplicable draw to the “supernatural”? Mankind has an innate desire to see paranormal things. We’re intrigued by things that we can’t explain. Our eyes snap to things that are metaphysical. We can’t help it.
My point about hindering God is again, complicated. Jesus is “hindered” from saving people because of their unbelief, clearly. He cannot forgive their sin if they will not believe in Him. That’s how WE see it. However, Jesus being hindered from doing “many mighty things” doesn’t, to me, contradict the principle of the sovereignty of God. I maintain that God knows everything in advance, has a distinct plan for exactly what WILL happen (not just what He “wants”), and that He uses even the hatred in men’s hearts to accomplish His full intentions. This is a hard doctrine to get my hands around, and I’m not quite there yet. It’s hard to really grasp the fact that, at 33AD, Jesus Christ had full knowledge of Todd Bentley in 2008AD. He knew then whether Todd would be promoting true or false gospel. Yet He died for Todd Bentley. Somehow, through all the stuff that confuses the dickens out of me, He knew all about it and it was part of His plan.
God isn’t held captive to our fancy. God doesn’t sit awaiting our requests. God is continually working. We are blessed to be invited to join Him. He’s not our captive toy to amaze our friends. He has invited us to follow His Son, and in doing so, to find Him. Someone who “believes” in God because they were healed should remember that Christ Himself said “more blessed are they who have not seen, but still believe.”
Love you guys.
Bernard
Bernard,
In answer to your question:
My biggest concern is not whether or not “you” believe in the prophetic, but whether your belief in that becomes bigger than your belief in Christ. In other words, are “we” going to “Lakeland” to see Jesus Christ at work, or are we going because of our inexplicable draw to the “supernatural”?
Easy answer, bro! I ain’t a-goin down there at all. I don’t believe that I have to “go there” to get what God is doing. That would mean that the only way God can work in my life is by being at a geographic location, and I don’t believe that.
I am grieved at how many people “seek the miracle” more than the miracle Man – Jesus. I believe that we are to seek first the kingdom of God, and HIS righteousness . . .
Christ is the cornerstone, and all the other parts of the building have to be laid “plumb” with its corners or all will be laid to waste.
Hope that answers your question, and I echo Fred’s “kudos” to you for your heart in the matter.
We do not even need to look at actions (although we can) to discern by the WORD the origin of the Lakeland Revival. Todd actually tells us the origin (I think its God’s mercy that he tells us) that it is from an angel named EMMA and of course then there is Promise, Jane and EMMA sprinkles Gold dust….sortal like a Fairy godmother……..YES the healings are legitimate but that is what ‘lying signs and wonders’ are. No one, not even the Bible says that the enemy doenst work legitimate signs and wonders. Anyone who knows anything bout New Age, knows that Psychic Healers have bonafide, doctor proven miracles. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT OF GOD. Go to the source. I think this is a test on the church. It is NOT a mixture or Todd mishandling an ‘annointing’. It is from familiar spirits masquerading as ‘angles’ Now we have the ‘cloud of witnesses’ theory that after centuries allows us to ‘talk to dead people’. NEVER, and I do mean NEVER is this permitted. A pastor compated it to the Mt of Transfiguration…but that view is an example of GROSS misinterpretation of scripture in that the Mt of Transfiguration was a ONE time event and NEVER did Peter, James or John speak to the two appearing. ALso, never did the early church in the NT seem to ‘speak’ to the cloud of witnesses….It is just a way for a new Christian Seance to infiltrate the church. As you know, for years the Church as a whole has taught correctly that anyone attending a seance and THINKING they see their dead relative are actually seeing a demon impersonating that loved one. Well, same here, if you open yourself up and talk to ‘dead people’ it really isnt ‘dead people’ at all but demons. I can only pray Mercy for someone supporting this revival which is literally conceived thru the Messengers of Hell impersonating as ‘angels’ and propagating many ‘doctrines of demons” spoke of in scripture (3rd heaven visits at will, people commissioning angles, talkiint to dead people). GOD HELP US ALL
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[...] am probably not the expert. … ended with the closing of the canon puts up a roadblock to much …http://www.fredmckinnon.com/myblog/2008/05/29/lakeland-revival-an-appeal-to-church-leaders/http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/publications/sitelines/sl095.pdfCoretta Scott King I cannot believe [...]
Introduce all spirit with no human government and you have spiritual chaos. Inject human intervention into the move of the spirit and you run the risk of producing religion. It’s hard to find the medium, but we must find it. I believe that Lakeland is a geniune move of God, but without some correction-it will loose it credibility swiftly. For instance, no one should be delivering prophecy during the televised testimonies. If the vessel is off, there goes the whole shabang. Todd read a prophetic word from Alec that Jesus would appear during the following night and it didn’t happen. Once again, too many cooks spoil the broth. Rules and regulations must be established even as Paul had to do in the Corinth church. Let us heed. For a great read check out “A Step Into Deliverance” by T. Pugh. It’s a riveting autobiography about one pastor’s journey into the deliverance ministry.
None of us would have Samson in our pulpits. Young, frivolous and calvalier, Samson played with the miracle working power of God like a kid would a toy, yet he was no less God’s judge for the hour. He never got serious about his mission until it cost him his life. I believe that Bentley is a choosen vessel, young and flawed, sadly lacking in spiritual etiquette and doing little to bring credibility to the movement. Yet none of this would prevent God from using him. If we become too critical, demanding that everything that occurs fall into our theological boxes, we become Pharisees; if we simply accept everything as from the Lord-we become guillible. There must be balance here for there will always be a mixture: the flesh and the spirit, the wheat and tares; the wise and the foolish in action. For a great read, check out “A Step Into Deliverance” by T. Pugh. It’s a riveting autobiography about one pastor’s journey into the deliverance ministry.
Ray,
May I take this moment to say “touche’ ”
We can find fault with many people. We wouldn’t dare to have Paul preach to us today. It’s simply not “politically correct”. He would offend too many people. But SAUL, on the other hand, would probably fit right into our current-day churches.
Elisha would be put in jail for calling the she-bears out to eat children.
Elijah would be guilty of mass murder and send to death row.
Jesus would be tagged by the CIA as a potential hazard.
We are all too critical, and spend much less time praying for the young and immature than we do lifting our own lives high.
I believe Bentley is a man that wants to see God’s will done. And I admire his firm stand – not because I feel he’s right in everything he’s doing, but because he is following what he truly believes IN HIS HEART
Robert McKinnons last blog post..Marriage and God’s Word: What do we really believe?
(I apparently hit a button too soon) . . .
because he is following what he truly believes IN HIS HEART what God has called him to do. And he will not back down for any man.
I have been judged unrighteously before for doing something that I believed in my heart that God was leading me to do. Perhaps I was wrong. But I was being obedient to what I was convinced was God’s voice.
I’d rather be guilty of doing the wrong thing out of a heart of obedience and love for my God than do the right thing and reject what I believe in my heart to be God.
Perhaps that’s deep. But to me it’s simple.
Robert McKinnons last blog post..Marriage and God’s Word: What do we really believe?
Hey Fred – I get no joy out of being right in this instance. I think a reflective follow-up post from you on this subject would be a great way to make sure that we learn the right lessons from this tragic mess. I blogged about this over at:
http://blogsology.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/todd-bentley-divorcing/
Jeff T.s last blog post..Todd Bentley Divorcing
I am very sorry to hear about Todd Bentley’s marriage problems. There is really not telling what is happening there or why it’s happening. All I know is that Satan is doing a good job destroying families, ministries and individual hearts today. And we seem to be his co-workers in so many instances.
One thing I’m impressed with, though. Todd Bentley, upon making this decision “final”, is releasing all authority over the revival (notice that I didn’t put quotation marks on that) and stepping away from it. Why is he doing this? I don’t know, but I believe that it’s because he sees that this thing that God is doing in Lakeland is more important that his having “control” or “authority” over it.
Father, I pray that you will bless Todd Bentley and his family in all things. I pray that Your grace and mercy will flood his heart and mind in all areas. I pray that You will continue to touch lives in whatever methodology, manner and way that You can in Lakeland. I also pray that we will truly intercede for the Bentleys, and not tear them down and judge them. Many lives and ministries are being attacked, Father. The enemy is truly seeking to devour and destroy lives. Open our hearts to pray more for Your will to be on earth as it is in heaven – believing that You desire that to be literal in every sense of the word. In Jesus’ name, Amen.
Robert McKinnons last blog post..Where He Judges the Living and the Dead: (What Now? cont’d)
Wow! Great site! The Gamaliel approach is cool because if something is not of God, it WON’T prevail. I was saved at age 23 and thank God for His timing since as a result, my kids were raised in a Christian environment. By age 30 I had, in my own mind, Theology “down cold”. I was a cessationist, but then I started talking to everyday people who had received supernatural (in the Name of Jesus) healings. These were non-celebrity, genuine everyday folks. That got me thinking a lot and led me to dispense with cessationism since I couldn’t find any New Testament reason for cessationism. Since then I have floated along, confident in the existence of a Holy/Loving God and confident I would see my late son, a dedicated Christian, again. Within the last several years I have become aware of a severe attack by satan in which he has tried to persuade me that there is no God and all we are taught in the Bible is a collection of Hebrew folk tales. I am not worried about succumbing to his atheistic lies because I hold to John 6:37, but I certainly am in dry times. I have started back on the Pentecostal trail as my severely weakened faith could sure use some real live Of Jesus miracles to get me fired up again. Of course I know we are to seek Jesus and not miracles, but I’m guessing that Good Old Jesus, being big time Merciful, will reveal some miracles of healing to me so as to revive me again. What does all this have to do with Lakeland? For me, I am blessed big time by what is going on down there. Personally, I need manifestations of God’s supernatural power to fire me up again from the spiritual wasteland I have been in. I don’t go to church to be revived as I feel worse after leaving church. I don’t blame the local believers, the spiritual depression is with me. I don’t want to follow error, but I for sure don’t want to be guilty of Pharaseeism. THAT is why the Gamaliel approach is cool. Sorry for the rambling account, but for the first time in a long time I am starting to feel fired up again about the things of God.