Fred

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Yes, in a way, sickness did come from God. Genesis 3 clearly paints the picture of the fall of man and God’s judgement of “do not eat of this tree or you will surely DIE.” The Hebrew word for die there is “muwth,” which means “to die prematurely” or “the process of death” as opposed to the traditionally used “maveth,” which is the literal state of death.

In short, God was saying that if they ate of the tree, then Adam and Eve would begin the process of dying. Obviously, we share this condition. Sickness is simply the consequences of living in an imperfect body. Sickness in and of itself (to me) is neither evil nor good, it’s simply a consequence of our imperfect bodies.
We are mortal and frail, therefore we are vulnerable to sickness.

This, however, is where the “no” comes in. Is sickness a malevolent blight from God on humanity? No. It is a justified consequence of the presence of sin in the world, and just as Jesus blood offers protection from spiritual death, the healing virtue of the Holy Spirit can nullify the naturally-occurring consequence of sickness.

Just because He is the executor of the curse known as sickness, does not mean that God is not good. On the contrary, as A.W. Tozer says:

“That God is good is taught or implied on every page of the Bible and must be received as an article of faith as impregnable as the throne of God. It is a foundation stone for all sound thought about God and is necessary to moral sanity. To allow that God could be other than good is to deny the validity of all thought and end ill the negation of every moral judgment. If God is not good, then there can be no distinction between kindness and cruelty, and heaven can be hell and hell, heaven.”

Just some blurry thoughts…

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Here’s a few observations / thoughts / opinions…

I don’t think sickness is from God. I believe it’s the result of the sin-filled, broken, messed-up world we live in. We’re promised that when Jesus returns and brings a new heaven and new earth that there will no longer be any tears, sickness or death.

Can God use sickness? ABSOLUTELY! God uses everything – good and bad – for His Glory. Romans 8:28 says, “And we know that ALL things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.”

Can God heal? Or, the better question, does God still heal today. Again, my reply would be, ABSOLUTELY. The same God that healed the sick and opened blind eyes can do the same today.

Great post, great discussion!!

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You’ve caught me off guard. And I like the way you did it. Isn’t it amazing how a simple question can open up a man’s heart to ask further ones?

As far as where does sickness come from . . . . God wants us to walk in HEALTH. That’s all that matters to me. When I’m not walking in health, I can usually look and see the things that opened a door to sickness.

There are certain laws in the universe. Accidentally fall off a ten story building and gravity kills you. Not God.

Get hit by a truck when you fall asleep at the wheel and ease into oncoming traffic? Intertia kills you (and maybe some stupidity). Not God.

Play in the rain on a cold and windy day, and your body is weakened trying to prevent things from happening, opening up a door for germs and such. Just part of the natural universe that came from the fall.

So my answer? When I’m not walking in health, my God is merciful to heal. When the healing doesn’t come? . . . . . .

Sorry, can’t answer that one. I don’t think there is one answer for it. It all depends on the circumstances.

Just my thoughts

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As for the thorn, I’ve always been hesitant to form doctrine off speculation … there really isn’t any definite Scripture that tells us the thorn was a sickness … and there is also no Scripture to say he was never delivered from it … it was just not done at the moment (or maybe it was never done, I’m just saying that leaves lots of questions)

Bay … regarding the man born blind:
1 – ultimately, how was God glorified? THROUGH HIS HEALING. I believe the context here shows that God allowed this sickness in his life to a point where the man COULD BE HEALED. It was his HEALING and DELIVERANCE that brought the glory to God.

But, again … God can use sickness (or whatever else) and we can bring glory to God through it, maybe by our response, by our faith, by our commitment to believe, etc …. but it doesn’t really deal w/ the “where did it come from”.

Even if God was glorified during it, it doesn’t necessarily mean that God “put it on him”. Just my $.02.

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I’ve always struggled with this, but when it comes to sickness, I fall back on a few thoughts:
1 – God knows I am sick.
2 – God is a good Father who wants good things for me.
3 – God can heal me.

When sickness exists and healing does not come, I look to see if God is using it for something else. When my son was 1, he had a 20 minute febrile seizure. The doctors told us it could be cancer, epilepsy, meningitis, etc. etc. We went through a long year and a half without God providing a miraculous healing. But my son eventually grew out of it, suffered no long term effects, and I can’t tell you how many people I have been able to witness to because of the experience we had. Did God allow the illness or did it just occur as a result of the fall, I don’t know, but I do know that Romans 8:28 has definitely been fulfilled in this situation.

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I want to address one quote, then your question…you said, “just because someone is Sovereign, the Authority, the Supreme Ruler, doesn’t mean that everything that happens in their kingdom is the will of the Sovereign Ruler” and my response is ‘yes and no’. You’ll have to remember that when Christians use the word “Sovereign” we aren’t using it in the mere earthly sense, but are trying to find an earthly word that can fit – as best as possible – a Biblical concept. So, what you way is absolutely true… of people. But, and I don’t want to derail this whole convo, but you brought it up – when one is absolutely sovereign (which only God CAN be) – in other words, they have ‘veto rights’ and awareness of everything that happens – in a sense there is a ‘will’-ing that takes place for ANYTHING that happens, whether it’s permitting (permissive will) it (which is hopefully for a reason) or choosing to directly cause it.

Back to your primary topic, though;
Sickness is initially a result of the Fall, so it is the result of Sin – the one absolutely ‘free’ choice that man ever made (Adam was sinless, and had no ’sin nature’, so he truly chose it of his free – and it was fully free – will). Sickness is also the will of God, in some sense, as He knowingly allowed the Fall to occur, knowing before He even made man that the ultimate plan was not for us to be saved by our obedience, but by Christ, that way God would get the glory – in that sense, sickness is generally part of the permissive will of God. It is also at times the will of God in another sense, which you already mentioned – He sometimes punishes, disciplines, and tries us with & through it indeed. There are specific instances of all three, and though usually (not always, though) in these cases the sickness itself it ‘delivered’ by the Devil, even then the Bible makes it clear that the Devil, as Martin Luther used to say, is “God’s devil” and can do no more than what God Himself allows in his will. Clearly, sickness in ALL of it’s forms is also in some sense from the Devil, as He is the tempter who deceived Eve, which led Adam to choose sin in the first place, and He & his co-laborers (other fallen angels like him) bring illness in the Scriptures. And, all wrapped up in this is your final choice: sickness happens because we live – at least partially – in a world tainted by the fall, and though the Kingdom has come in our hearts, it is not yet fully here, so the ‘perfect will of God’ is not yet playing out ‘on earth as it is in Heaven’. That’s just to say, my response is “Check Z.) ALL OF THE ABOVE”

I think the important thing to note, however, is that we are indeed to pray for healing (I’ve prayed, and seen people healed, so I know that God does it in even otherwise hopeless situations), and we are to be walking in the Kingdom and praying and living the prayer that God’s will be “done on earth as it is in Heaven”. Is there sickness in Heaven? Then we should pray that there not be sickness here, as well.

Yet we are living in the New Covenant – not yet in ‘Heaven’ or the New Earth where the Kingdom will come in fullness: even Jesus didn’t heal everyone while here. In John 5:3 Jesus sees a great multitude of sick folk, yet only approaches one among them, and heals him – alone. Mark 1:34 & 6:13 points to yet other occasions where Jesus healed “many” but not necesarilly all who were present – a reason is not given as to why, so it may be suggested that the reason is that those who weren’t healed “lacked faith”, but the man in John 5 didn’t even know who Jesus was, so he clearly had no faith either, so I think jumping to such a conclusion is really reading something into the text which is not necessarily there. Paul clearly had faith to be healed, as he healed others, and after many prayers, was told specifically by God that his infirmity was not going to be healed as it was for his own good to keep his humble. God’s answer to Paul’s prayer for healing was “my power is made perfect in weakness.” Though some have argued that Paul’s condition was not an illness, I think the case is clear because 1.) all of the early church fathers, many of whom were discipled by the 12, believed it was a physical illness, 2.) it clearly was something about “the flesh” (his body) and not merely something tormenting him spiritually, 3.) it left him physically “weak”. Given that the Galatians – for some reason – said they’d gladly pluck out their eyes (Gal 4:16) to give them to him, he likely was plagued with some degree of eye problems, possibly going back to when he was entirely blinded by God on the road to Damascus.

1 Timothy 5:23, 2 Timothy 4:2 & Philippians 2:25-30 are all other New Testament examples of praying saints who were not delivered from their illnesses.

That’s just to say, the Kingdom hasn’t come in it’s fullness, and sometimes God simply doesn’t heal (well, He does, but sometimes that healing comes in it’s fullness in the afterlife, and not the here & now), and we don’t always know why.

Anyway, I’m sure there will be much discussion on this, but I’d also like to direct anyone interested into a series of blogs I’ve been writing that speak on some of these very same issues – they’re all linked from this one, so far, but there are many more to come:
http://heatlight.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/reflections-on-suffering-the-sovereignty-of-god-discussions/

Unless God speaks to me like He did Paul, I’m going to pray for the sick to be healed, as God is still a healer. I’ll trust Him in the case I don’t see the healing I expect, but I’ll also continue to petition Him for what is eventually promised: that we’ll see His Kingdom worked out here like it is there… I know we at least have this promise – we will be healed. The temptation is to be disappointed if it is not now, but eventually we’ll all be whole and in His presence. Any healing we are granted today is only temporary – that healing and wholeness will be forever!

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John 10:10 does make it clear what Jesus wanted to accomplish.

We often hear about the fact that Jesus promises we’ll have tribulations and trials … and yes, even sufferings. In a fallen world, we will have these things. He came to help us get OUT of that.

Yes – we are suffering. YES – He is there to lift us OUT of our suffering, and into that abundant life He’s promised for us.