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Who Needs Church?
Posted on September 2nd, 2009 in Church Life, Faith by Fred McKinnon
(RSS Readers – This one really cries for discussion – so please click out of your RSS Reader and visit the site and comment)
OK – Let me start out this discussion by saying that even if did NOT work for the “church”, I would attend “church” … I believe in the entity of the local church, an organized Body of Believers, with ordained leaders.
BUT … the whole thing about “church” is something that I see Christians wrestling with constantly, especially in our post-modern times. Lately I’ve been wrestling with it myself … hearing and asking questions like
1. “What is little-c church and how does it play a role in the BIG-C Church”.
2. “Where’s the evidence of an organized “entity” called church in the New Testament?”
3. “What’s the premise behind “church buildings” and is it Scriptural?
4. “As individual Christians, are we required by Scripture to be under the authority of leaders in our “local church”?
5. “What exactly IS the church?”
6. “Don’t forsake assembling … OK … well, if Christians meet and hang out during the week – isn’t that assembling”?
7. “Is a “home group” or “home church” among Christian laymen and laywomen OK? If so, is there an authority or government there? If so, what is it? If not, is that Scriptural? (lots of questions there!)
These are but a few of the points and questions that come up in discussions I see and hear. I have my own answers to some of these questions. But often, as soon as I answer them … I think about alternatives.
The purpose of this post is to create conversation … not to sanction a mass exodus from the local church. See my opening paragraph, I believe in the entity, and would say so even if I didn’t receive a “salary” from her. But I’m genuinely interested in hearing the different thoughts on this subject. So don’t be shy. Fill this page with hundreds of comments.
Ready? Go.
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20 Responses to “Who Needs Church?”
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Fred – this is a discussion I’m hearing all over – check this article out http://bit.ly/Rhgy1
John,
wow – what an interesting read – thanks for the link. For those who are commenting – checkout that article. Also, be sure and check the box at the bottom of the comment box, enabling you to “subscribe via emails” to comments, so you can keep up with the conversation.
These are very good questions and one that we should all be thinking about. I will answer them the best I can and by no means am I an authority on this subject (the Word is the final authority)
1.There is ONLY one church and it is always the big “C”. The Church has always been the people and not the buildings.
2. There are way too many scripture to list here. Acts 20:28 comes to mind. This would be a blog post itself.
I will skip a few as I am short on time:
5. I have talked about
6. Maybe, are they singing and studying and praying. Quite possibly yes.
7. I think so if under the umbrella of a local assembly. They need leadership somehow to make sure false doctrines don’t come in.
These are difficult questions to answer but I will attempt to put more thorough thought to it over the next few days.
Thanks for challenging us.
Jim Wright
I love to worship in a corporate setting. That said, there is something beautiful and intimate about a small group. I feel they both have their place. Maybe that’s why we are not mandated to have meetings be a certain size. The Lord knew the diversity of needs in the Body would create a diversity of expressions. Some people thrive in small, house-group-type settings. Others thrive in large, corporate settings. That’s wonderful and, I believe, right. (I think it is good to step out of what’s comfortable for both sides and experience many expressions, though)
my parent’s generation (baby boomers) don’t understand why my friends don’t want to go to church.
i tell them, generally speaking, there is nothing “there” for them. or at least they don’t perceive the church as having anything for them.
if they are believers, they find community elsewhere and the modern church does such a poor job with fostering real, authentic community. Why would they leave their comfortable, tolerant communities to become a part of something awkward and forced.
i too believe in the gathering of believers and i know personally that i need the body in order to function well as a christ-follower. but i know a lot of believers who don’t seem to need the local church.
now are they functioning well as followers of christ? maybe not, i’m not sure. but it seems to be a running theme among the thirty-somethings i am friends with.
Sarah,
You ask a great question … how are they functioning? The few that I know seem to be functioning quite well in their walk with the Lord, from what I can see .. yet, I feel that the greater Body of Christ is missing the gifts and contributions they could be bringing to the table in a bigger context.
[...] is an intersting post over at Fred McKinnon’s blog titled Who Needs Church. He asks some interesting questions and is asking for dialog so I thought I’d send all [...]
WOW! You’ve opened the proverbial “can of worms” with these questions. I would love to respond with what I believe, backed up with many scriptural references; however, it would take more time than I now have available. I would say, however, that the answer to your questions (at least in my perspective) hinges on an adequate understanding of the definition of “church”. Wish I had more time to adequately follow up.
Dad,
Bring it in bits and pieces!
Personally, I am a “church junky” – I LOVE CHURCHES. Anytime I have an opportunity, I visit congregations I’ve not worshiped with before. I enjoy the variety of people and styles of worship, and I even am often encouraged by the different doctrinal emphasises of various congregations.
Having not been raised in the church, when I decided to follow Jesus I regularly attended 4 different churches (7:30AM, 9:30AM, 12PM, 6:00PM) on Sundays, and 3 different Campus Ministries, and just took in all the Word I could process. I look back on that time with fond memories.
Now I’m happy to be plugged in where I am: there is accountability, encouragement, friendship, and even vision that comes from settling into a specific body of believers.
Anyway, that’s just to say that I am VERY “Pro-church”.
Fred, I have started replying to this post on five occasions and gotten stuck each time with “TOO MUCH! TOO MUCH!” running through my mind. I feel like Daddy on this one.
I will say this: I am torn about it. Personal experience has much to do with it. But you can’t deny the fact that many, many good and hungry people aren’t getting what they need in “organized church”.
At the same time, many good and hungry people are growing in grace and love and their understanding of God in small groups and joining themselves together away from that building on the corner with the steeple on top.
I believe that God is moving in both places, and when we limit Him to only be able to meet the needs of folks when we gather in the temple, church, social hall . . . whatever name we lable it, we limit ourselves and enslave God’s power to our own “natural” way of thinking.
I believe in 5-fold ministry, and have come across many ministers out there on the street and in coffee shops who have no “church”, but are pastors. Many who teach others on a daily basis the word of God but have no “church” they teach at.
As long as these ministers and sheperds are out in the field, and they have connections themselves with other ministers who hold one another accountable . . . . the church is in action and is working.
On both sides of the question.
Robert,
Funny, the way you open this up … a dear friend of mine emailed last night saying this:
“I have started to comment at least 3 times…every time I start to comment, I think that this is a better conversation to have over beer or coffee…”
“I will try to get a comment posted. It is an excellent topic.”
This is one of those questions without an “either-or” answer. It is still worthy of pondering. It demands we constantly take stock of where we are in our motivation and our need and our thinking on spirituality. I have found myself on both sides of the question (like Robert) and even edge of opting out. Life isn’t a cookie cutter experience. Christianity certainly isn’t and I don’t think “church” is either.
Robin, true … it's hard to be either/or on this one … thanks for chiming in.
Personally, I’m surprised any of these seven items are an issue. Someone who has trouble with these should begin to read the new testament all the way through.
1. The Church is the Body of Christ no matter where your local church meets.
2. Evidence of organization in the New Testament for churches. Besides my answers below, how about Revelation chapters 1-3 (letters to 7 churches), and all of the Epistles written to specific churches.
3. Just one example of people meeting in a building is the church at Philippi meeting at Lydia’s house. (Acts 16:11-15) The church of Ephesis met in Aquila and Prscilla’s house (1 Cor 16:19). The Jews met in the synagogue. Why would meeting in a building for the church be any different?
4. Romans 13:1-7 talks about submitting to authority. Hebrews 13:7-9 talks about those who rule over you concerning doctrine. See also: Ephesians 5:21, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 2:9-11, etc. Do a word study on authority. OT Numbers Chapters 11, 12, and 14.
5. Acts 2:42 describes the important facets of what a church should look like as do the doctrinal Epistles of 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Ephesians, Colossians, Titus, and 1 & 2 Timothy (church leadership, how to pray for one another, gifts of the spirit, submitting to authority, etc.)
6. Hebrews 10:24-25 makes this clear. Hanging out is not the same as fellowship (see Acts 2:42).
7. A home group is the gathering of the church. It’s a church. If it has a 501(3)c then it’s a non-profit corporation.
Bridget,
You bring it, girl!
Daddy and Robert are right.
Each of these questions warrants it’s own blog post. Hugely important issues.
Mark Driscoll’s church in Seattle has mostly single males around 21 years old. They have community groups and sermons for 1+hrs with worship, communion, etc. People can connect if they want to.
Having Chronic Fatigue for the last 4 years has been a horrible struggle. Last month, I resigned as WL of my church and from the women’s teaching team. It’s been horribly isolating and I miss that fellowship.
If you don’t like the church, find another one; remember, however, it’s purpose is not entertainment.
Touche’ Bridgit! I didn’t know where you were going until you said “a home group is a church”. THAT’S what many need to realize. It’s also evidence that when people (in general) hear the word “church”, they think of the building housing the 501c orgainization, and not the people.
We’ve got to “get over ourselves” in so many of the “issues” we deal with. Great first line of the post, too!
I just read a book called “So you don’t want to go to church anymore.” It doesn’t bash the church but has good and relevant points. An example that may answer your question that he gives is about geese. Our direction is to follow Jesus. That is our focus like geese who focus on flying south. It’s not about where we meet but about where we are going. We have a lot to learn from these geese.
By flying in “V ” formation, the whole flock adds at least 71% greater flying range than if each bird flew on its own.
People who share a common direction and sense of community can get where they are going quicker and easier because they are traveling on the thrust of one another.
You may want to read this:
“A Whole New Church
I felt the only way to be effective and remain faithful to this church (having served for less than a year at that time) was to start a new church in our youth center with a whole new approach to church ministry. I presented the idea to my pastoral staff. Their response was mixed, but they believed in me and hung on to that even though they couldn’t fully catch the vision I had received from God.
They were enthusiastic, however, about the possibility of doing ministry like the New Testament instead of in accordance with the much-too-common phrase heard around the church, “This is the way we’ve always done it.” No one really knew why we did it that way; it was just familiar and comfortable to the staff and congregation.” — Scott Thomas
http://theresurgence.com/the-story